A Humanistic Revolution in Legal Education—How Penn State Dickinson Law Is Reimagining Anti-Racism in Action

In the wake of George Floyd’s murder, as institutions across the country wrestled with what it means to confront systemic racism, one law school took action—right in the dean’s backyard. Literally.

In this episode of Beyond the Quadcast, we sit down with the inspiring team behind the Anti-Racist Development Institute (ADI) at Penn State Dickinson Law. Dean Danielle Conway, Professor Dermot Groome, Program Manager Tawanda Hunter Stallworth, Education Program Coordinator Serena Hermitt, and others take us on a deeply personal and transformative journey through the origins, impact, and aspirations of ADI.

What began with empathy and a faculty resolution has grown into a bold and practical movement to redesign how we teach and practice law. Through a nine-volume book series, collaborative convenings, and a design-thinking model that centers human pain and potential, the ADI is reshaping legal education into something inclusive, accessible, and powerfully human.

Highlights include:

How lived experience is driving an anti-racist framework
Why empathy and design thinking are at the core of legal transformation
How their tools are being adopted beyond law schools
The power of scholarship that’s made to be dog-eared, shared, and used
Why DEI work doesn’t need to be perfect—it needs to be persistent

From emotional storytelling to structural change, this episode is a must-listen for educators, changemakers, and anyone curious about how to do the work—together.

Books & Resources Mentioned in the Episode

Building an Anti-Racist Law School, Legal Academy, and Legal Profession (Forthcoming)
A groundbreaking nine-volume book series by the Anti-Racist Development Institute (ADI), developed using design thinking methodology. With over 180 contributors from 75+ institutions, this practical reader is a toolkit for implementing anti-racist change in legal education and beyond.
📌 Designed for practical use, not just theory. Includes activities and reflection prompts in each chapter.
The History of White People by Nell Irvin Painter
A powerful and deeply researched historical examination of how the concept of “whiteness” was socially constructed—and how it has shaped racial hierarchies in the U.S. and Europe.
📌 Recommended by Dean Conway as an essential read to understand race and identity beyond binary terms.

🛠️ Frameworks and Methodologies Referenced

Design Thinking Methodology
Used to center human pain and ideate solutions, this five-step process (empathize, define, ideate, prototype, test) guides all ADI projects—including the book series and convenings.
Systems Design
A foundational framework in ADI’s work to dismantle hierarchies and rethink structures in higher education.
Critical Pedagogy
A core pillar of ADI’s approach to anti-racist education—focusing on empowering learners through empathy, lived experience, and action.

Want to Learn More or Get Involved?

Contact the ADI team at Penn State Dickinson Law to learn about upcoming convenings, access early resources from the book series, or get involved in their broader coalition work.

Episode Transcript

Insight Into Diversity (00:05)

Welcome to Beyond the Quadcast, where we explore the stories, innovations, and initiatives shaping higher education. I’m Katy Abrams, executive editor at Insight into Diversity magazine, the leader in advancing best practices in inclusive excellence and belonging.

Misty (00:22)

I’m Misty Evans, staff writer at Insight Into Diversity. Today we’re thrilled to welcome members of Penn State Dickinson Law.

here today to speak with us about their Anti-Racist Development Institute.

Insight Into Diversity (00:32)

Warm welcome everyone. Thank you so much for joining us. Would you mind taking a moment and just introducing yourselves?

Serena Hermitt (00:42)

Yeah, thank you so much for having us. My name is Serena Hermit and I am the Education Program Coordinator for the Anti-Racist Development Institute at Dickinson Law.

TaWanda Hunter Stallworth (00:52)

So glad to be with you. My name is Tawanda Hunter-Stalworth, and I’m the very proud program manager of the Anti-Racist Development Institute here at Penn State Dickinson Law.

Dermot Groome (01:01)

And my name is Dermot Groom. I’m a professor at the

law school and also the associate director of the ADI.

Danielle M. Conway (01:07)

And I am fortunate to be the dean at Penn State Dickinson Law and part of the visioning of the work of the Anti-Racist Development Institute.

Misty (01:20)

Amazing.

Insight Into Diversity (01:20)

Thank you

so much. I am really thrilled to have you with us today. We’re really excited to talk about the Anti-Racist Development Institute. I was hoping that you could share first a little bit about the origins How was that started or what inspired its creation at Dickinson Law?

Misty (01:23)

So today.

Danielle M. Conway (01:37)

it’s great that you asked that question, which I’m going to pitch to my colleague, Professor Dermot Groom, because in many ways, it started in my backyard, right, Dermot, during the pandemic when you came to visit my house.

Dermot Groome (01:51)

Yes.

Right. So obviously after the murder of George Floyd, really traumatized us as a country. And, you know, know Danielle has a young son and I think the trauma was particularly felt by her. We as a law school faculty also thought, we have to react. So as a faculty, we passed a unanimous resolution to come out against racism. And then we said to ourselves, well, we’re educators. If there is systemic racism,

in our country, we have a role to play in correcting the architecture of that system. And so we came out with a second resolution to think about how we should be educating differently and meet the needs of this country at this moment in time. We did a course Race in the Legal Protection of the Law. We started it a few months after George Floyd was murdered. And from that, Daniel and I spoke about, well, we need to spread this further than just a law school.

And that in essence became the birth of the ADI.

Danielle M. Conway (02:58)

And I want to underscore my colleagues synopsis of that by saying it immediately found its way to us organically through empathy. The very act of coming to my house to check on me.

Misty (03:23)

That’s so important.

Insight Into Diversity (03:24)

That’s a beautiful way for anything meaningful to start. Thank you for sharing that with us. I appreciate that.

Misty (03:29)

Mm-hmm.

Danielle M. Conway (03:31)

Thank you and thank you for the pause to really appreciate how caring and loving that moment of our discussion was.

Insight Into Diversity (03:44)

Yes, absolutely.

How does, the ADI define anti-racism? What does that mean to you as a framework, and why is it so crucial for higher education institutions to be thinking about?

Danielle M. Conway (04:05)

So I’ll start and of course we’ll pepper you with our own expressions of definition and concept and foundational principles. But it really does stem from how we started this conversation. Anti-racism and our two other pillars of systems design and critical pedagogy are meant

Misty (04:18)

Thank

Danielle M. Conway (04:34)

to focus specifically on empathy, especially for others. In doing that work to acknowledge an existence of systems that perpetuate racialized gender and intersectional

injustice through hierarchies, we say that we have to first acknowledge that. In acknowledging that, it’s important to recognize we’re not talking about binary systems, black, white. We’re not doing that. We’re not talking about binary gender systems, men and women. We’re not talking about that. What we’re saying is we have these identity markers.

that define our deepest selves. And those selves have the potential to be marginalized and placed at a fringe. In that, you can see it’s also fluid. So it’s acknowledging when on this hierarchy, you have advantages that have nothing to do with how hard you work or merit, or you have disadvantages.

no matter how hard you work or merit. And we need to acknowledge those things. So that’s the first element. And the second and the third elements are, once you acknowledge that, you have to acquire knowledge through teaching and learning. And particularly for us in legal education,

Misty (05:58)

Yeah.

Danielle M. Conway (06:18)

Much of what we teach and learn is how to be self learners. And so we are engaging people with the tools to perform that self learning about these systems and how they operate. And then third is once you do that groundwork is to take actions to

deconstruct, to dismantle these systems that are getting in the way of justice and equality, which are fundamental components of our constitutional order within the 14th Amendment. So I’ll stop there.

Misty (07:06)

Wow, I love that. It’s so powerful.

Danielle M. Conway (07:10)

Thanks, Misty.

Insight Into Diversity (07:11)

Have you had any experiences with putting this framework together that have been particularly important to you?

TaWanda Hunter Stallworth (07:21)

Yeah, I’ll take that question. So the action piece of that definition, we use or have operationalized a design thinking methodology for the development of a book series, which is sort of the foundational project of the Anti-Racist Development Institute.

And so the title of the book series is Building an Anti-Racist Law School, Legal Academy, and Legal Profession. And the book series implements the design thinking methodology, but it’s from that definition of institutional anti-racism where we’ve acknowledged that there is pain, right? And so the design thinking methodology prioritizes that pain so that we use

the experiences that people have in their participation with these systems to brainstorm or ideate and come up with potential solutions for how we might solve for the problem of racism and white supremacy in this country and in the legal academy and legal profession more specifically. And so the…

the action piece of that and using that design thinking methodology is so embedded into what we do. And the fruit or outcomes from that are even the internal dismantling the hierarchies as you’ve seen us do here on the recording. So I love that piece of it because not very often, not very many places, particularly law schools, will you hear a lot of talk about

empathy as being so important and prioritized and what folks are going through the reality of systemic injustice in this country produces pain and it’s time to acknowledge that pain and use that as a springboard to problem solve.

Misty (09:18)

Yeah, that’s brilliant. And it’s so true. Empathy is such a huge component in doing this work. And just the story part of it when Dermot pointed out that Danielle had a son and that just piece of it is just, think that human element, it just helps with the learning process because people care more when they really see each other.

It’s really beautiful. the book series, so the book series you use in-house, but you also disseminate it outside to other law schools, is that correct?

Dermot Groome (09:54)

The book series grew out of conversations that Danielle and I had after we successfully had the first iteration of this specialized course that examines the relationship between law and race. Danielle had a conversation with one of the University of California Press, and they encouraged Danielle and all of us to think about this as a much bigger project. So right now, it’s…

sounded very ambitious at the start, but there are nine volumes, but we actually have most of the chapters written, over 180 contributors, 75 different organizations and institutions, thought leaders, law schools around the country. So it actually was probably overly ambitious, but we are doing it.

Danielle M. Conway (10:44)

Thank

Dermot Groome (10:46)

At the outset, it’s important to say that this multi-volume series is not intended to be read from the first page to the last volume. It’s best to think of it as a toolbox for legal educators. Users of the series will be able to easily navigate and focus on an issue that they’re thinking about. So if you look at volume four, anti-racist curriculum development, this volume is probably of

most interest to law faculties trying to implement curricular change. What are the practical steps necessary to implement a new idea about how legal education can be improved? For example, how do we teach students about these rapidly emerging technologies while being mindful of anti-racist principles? I’m the co-editor of volume five, and that’s teaching and learning.

And that’s an aggregation of the shared experiences and ideas of professors from around the country. And what we do is we work together in a collaborative way using systems design. And it’s a very energizing and very productive way of creating this content.

And I think maybe if I could turn it over to Tawanda and she could talk about some of the convenings we’ve had where we’ve brought these people together and we’ve had these incredible gatherings where a lot of this work has been done.

TaWanda Hunter Stallworth (12:10)

So we have had a couple of convenings and they really started out as small gatherings by volume. So as my colleague mentioned, there are nine volumes. So imagine gathering about 15 to 20 folks around a topic for the purpose of writing, right, for the volume. But not just writing the way that

law school faculty may be used to writing law review articles, these are a little different. So the books are readers. They’re not meant to be scholarly or heavily intellectualized pieces, but they are meant to be readers, right? So UC Press uses Chicago style. This is maybe a little bit different than what folks are used to. And so because all of this is different,

And again, using that design thinking methodology, not only in the what that is being done, but the how. So we bring people together to implement that design thinking methodology. And so we’ve been at a few different places throughout the country to bring folks together by volume to really think about who are the users, who, where is the pain. And you can imagine throughout this experience that

folks are bringing their own pain, they’re bringing their full selves to these conversations. And in those spaces, we find that an anti-racist ethos ends up being developed. A place where relationship building and empathizing with one another, where vulnerability is welcome. And those things I think have really given the…

special sauce, right, to what the Anti-Racist Development Institute does because we’re not doing something that’s just gonna sit on a shelf, right? It’s not just, not to minimize scholarship, but it’s not scholarly. It’s not for just conversation. It’s for practice, right? It’s for practical use for, to Dermot’s point, for our law school faculty to think about

I want to change up my curriculum to be more anti-racist than these are the, you know, some things and some ideas. And at the end of each chapter, there is an opportunity for the readers to practice what they have learned using that design thinking methodology.

And as far as the convenings, I’d like to ask Serena maybe if she’d like to share a couple words about some of the recent convenings that we’ve had on a larger scale.

Insight Into Diversity (14:46)

I’d love to hear about that. want to really quickly, as a recovering writing professor for many years, am really excited about the emphasis on accessibility for these texts and about the audience awareness that is clearly going into creating these and the…

the way in which you are developing texts that are meant to be used, right? They’re meant to get dirty. They’re meant to have dog-eared pages and notes on them. these are things that are meant to be shared and used and utilized. And I think that that’s just a really incredible aspect of this project because it’s very easy for, mean, especially legal studies perhaps, but I mean, many

many different fields. They have their type of writing and their style of communicating, and it can be really difficult to kind of switch gears and move out of that and try to present in a different way. And I just really love that that has been a focus, and I think that that’s definitely going to make this more widely used and more widely accessible. So thank you so much for putting that thought into it and really taking care to do that.

Danielle M. Conway (16:06)

And after Serena talks, want to actually punctuate a point that Tawana made, but I want Serena to be in this conversation, and then I’ll make a point afterwards.

TaWanda Hunter Stallworth (16:07)

Well, it’s.

Serena Hermitt (16:18)

Yeah, I was just gonna add, think some of the most meaningful conversations I’ve had with a lot of the contributors come from them sharing their personal narrative and being thankful that they have an opportunity to share their experiences in this way and expressing that they wished that they had had something like this to read and to know that they weren’t alone in their experiences.

So I think that’s going to be a really important part of the book series is that combination of both personal narrative and experience with that practical aspect that this is something you can use to build on that definition, to take that action, to teach and learn according to anti-racist principles. Danielle, you want to add in here before I go into the convening?

Danielle M. Conway (17:07)

I do because what you

just said is spectacular, Serena. And it joins together with Tawanda’s point. about this term called scholarship, especially legal scholarship. I’m going put this out there. This is scholarship.

Dermot Groome (17:24)

Yeah.

Danielle M. Conway (17:24)

It’s about how we’re defining scholarship that we are challenging, right? So what Serena just said was it, taking lived experiences and then theorizing those experiences in a way that offers a clear communication to the reader. We often in the law use language to exclude.

And what Serena is saying is you can theorize and still be inclusive in your writing. And so we should not think about that theorizing as something different than scholarship. In fact,

It is praxis scholarship and it’s inviting people to engage to critique. And that’s another thing about anti-racism. You see how excited I’m getting. It’s about being in the conversation to critique. We do not do this work to come to a particular conclusion. It’s the constant conversation. So it’s just like refining.

Misty (18:18)

I love it.

Danielle M. Conway (18:38)

a principle or a concept because we remain engaged.

Dermot Groome (18:43)

I could add to that, we really see ourselves as being on the cutting edge of legal education So we’re not the only ones trying to be mindful about anti-racist principles as we go about creating and forming the next generation of lawyers who are going to meet the needs of our country in this moment of time. So part of what this book series is doing is gathering those experiences together.

and sharing them and then critiquing them and thinking about how collectively we can improve legal education.

Misty (19:15)

It’s brilliant.

Insight Into Diversity (19:17)

Do you think that the texts that you’re creating, obviously they’re intended for legal education, do you think that these are applicable to fields outside of legal education? And if so, what do think that might look like? And if not, would you want to write some?

Misty (19:35)

Dermot Groome (19:35)

Ted, do you want to?

Danielle M. Conway (19:38)

think Tawanda’s

going to answer that because she’s got this really big grin on her face.

TaWanda Hunter Stallworth (19:44)

Well, I just love the conversation. I love talking about the things that we are doing. I’ll answer that, but I think one point that’s really worth talking about is the design thinking methodology has that recursive nature built into it. And so the graphics that we use show, whether it’s the infinity symbol or some symbol that sort of points to where we’re becoming.

Right? Like we’re doing this and not that we will have ever arrived, but we’re constantly in ways trying to make things better. Right? And so once we go through the five steps of the design thinking process of empathizing, defining, ideating, prototyping, and then testing, we get to do it all over again. And that really provides us with

some grace that we can give to each other and that we can give to the project and that the chapter contributors can share with each other and with the editors And so it’s just this constant way of being that makes it okay to know that we’re moving in the right direction, that there are no experts in the things that we’re trying to do, but we’re

we’re all working toward the same idea. With regard to other disciplines, we have had the opportunity to work with some of our colleagues through the Penn State University ecosystem in various fields. So the College of Medicine and our colleagues with the College of Communications, and I apologize if that’s not their right name.

but we’ve been working with them on how they can also implement anti-racist principles using design thinking methodology. Whether or not a book series would come from that, you’d have to check back with me after a little bit so we could get through this book series first.

Danielle M. Conway (21:42)

But

it ties the two things together that Dermot said and that Tawanda said. So in Penn State University, we have a 24 location ecosystem with our Commonwealth campuses that offer four year degrees on their own that situate right next to the University Park campus. And so with all of these universities,

They’re all involved. And they’re coming at it from all different perspectives and disciplines. And they too are contributing to the book series.

So to really punctuate what you asked, Katie, it’s already in a stream, but it’s important to recognize what Dermot said, which is we are looking at how we bring this template to others, but not that we say this template is the template.

other organizations or schools or places of work, they may be doing very collaborative and aligned work and that work has to be respected alongside the work that we’re doing. And our role is to bring it together in a collective approach, right Dermot?

Dermot Groome (23:16)

Yeah, and I think

Danielle, just to build on what you’re saying, we don’t see systemic racism as the only issue that we’re tackling. The anti-Semitism is, you know, it’s really scary how it’s increased. So we have a relationship with the Holocaust Genocide and Human Rights Education Program at Penn State, and we work with them collaborating on different projects. One of our faculty members, Andrea Martin, is a certified Holocaust

Danielle M. Conway (23:35)

That’s your program.

Dermot Groome (23:46)

and her and I have done work and she’s also contributed to the book series as well. So we really take a broad view of this and anyone who’s willing to listen to us and collaborate with us, we’ve never said no to anyone.

Misty (24:02)

I love that.

Danielle M. Conway (24:02)

Yep, we’ve worked with

organizations and proponents of differently abled people to be part of this, again, anti-racist, anti-oppression, anti-subordination work. And this is a great time to mention this is how we think about intersectional.

justice. And when I mentioned before, we have so many deep and connecting identity markers. We’re not just one thing. We are thinking about veterans and how veterans are being pushed to the fringe. We are thinking about transgender people and how they are being pushed to the fringe. So

The one thing that is just absolutely enthralling when we have our convening and our mini convenings, when you see the mass of humanity that walks into the door and everyone from all walks of life are coming through the door to be part of this convening.

TaWanda Hunter Stallworth (25:17)

we had our mini-convening at the Franklin Delano Roosevelt Museum and Library. that was our first mini-convening. And we had the intention of working with

a few of our chapter contributors who needed a little bit, know, wanted to do a little bit more writing and workshopping with their editor. We chose that location based on relationship and were really excited to be there in Hyde Park, New York. As it happened that we were in the museum, there was an employee, Hannah,

who happened upon our group and hung out with us. She said she was only coming for the design thinking training. Of course, we had spoken with the staff and the administration at the museum and said, if you have a few people, they’re more than welcome to come and hang out with us. So she joined us for the design thinking portion of the day. And then she came back after lunch and said, I just got permission to stay.

Misty (26:20)

Thank you.

TaWanda Hunter Stallworth (26:23)

The rest of the day with you all, I wanna learn more about what you’re doing. And really expressed how she felt like she belonged, right? That the sense of belonging in that room was something that she would carry with her and wanted to experience again. And so we’ve been in conversation with her about how else can we work together? What other projects could we maybe…

return to Hyde

Danielle M. Conway (26:58)

Mm-hmm.

Misty (26:58)

It’s amazing.

Serena Hermitt (27:01)

Yeah, and there are so many stories like that. There are so many different entry points into the work, into the coalition, into the relationship. Another example was a local community member who works in the technology field and was interested in the design thinking, the systems design and design thinking. And he reached out to Towanda and asked if he could come to one of our larger convenings.

She was like, of course, everybody’s welcome, as is the message for all events that we have. And he came specifically for the design thinking, but he was the first person there every day, the last person to leave. We’ve since onboarded him as a systems designer. So he’s doing work with some of our working groups at Penn State, as well as facilitating systems design and design thinking workshops.

for other organizations now. He’s been on the board for different DEI affiliated things at his own organization. And he’s expressed that, you know, he came for one thing and he left with so many more and so many more goals and things that he wants to do. And there’s just so many other stories we could tell like this. There’s so many ways people can get involved. And I think

There’s a place for everybody in the coalition, which is the beautiful part.

Danielle M. Conway (28:22)

Okay.

Dermot Groome (28:24)

Of course, all your listeners are welcome to contact us. The next big convening is in the fall, but if anyone’s interested in learning more or attending, just reach out and you’ll be welcome as well.

Misty (28:27)

Yes!

Serena Hermitt (28:28)

Hehehehe

Misty (28:37)

Absolutely, we’ll put a link in there. We might show up. I was just thinking that. I’m like, I would like to attend Danielle’s barbecues in her backyard or just like wherever you and Dermot are hanging out, fun things are happening. And yeah, we might just show up. But we will definitely put a link in the episode for people So yeah, because I think a lot of people are going to be really interested after hearing this.

Insight Into Diversity (28:38)

You never know, Misty and I might show up.

Danielle M. Conway (28:40)

You should.

you

That’s awesome. Thank you for that too. Thank you for asking us to appear and to just share this project with you.

Misty (29:11)

It’s been so inspiring. Yeah, it’s been really inspiring. It’s a project and it sounds very much so like a cultural revolution in a lot of ways, which is always exciting.

Insight Into Diversity (29:12)

I’m so glad that you have.

Danielle M. Conway (29:26)

Yeah, I like to call it a humanistic revolution, right? Our ethos is grounded in humanism. That’s how Dermot presented this at the very first instance where we became relational, And not transactional, not dean and faculty member.

Misty (29:30)

Yeah.

Danielle M. Conway (29:51)

And so to the degree that we fail at it, as Tawanda said, this iterative, we then pick the ball back up and say, OK, let me try this again. Or, hey, I apologize for that. I want to keep working on this so that I see you and hear you and empathize with you. And I really want to stress that because that’s what has kept us.

so connected, just this ability to keep talking with each other.

Misty (30:28)

That, yeah.

Insight Into Diversity (30:30)

was just having a conversation

with someone last night about the sort of state of DEI and this is a 25 year friend who is not on the same side of the political spectrum as I am. And so we have a lot of very respectful conversations. You know, he knows what I do and where I work and we’ll ask questions and

one of the conversations that we had just last night was about the fact that I think there has been this societal expectation that DEI work and anti-racist work

once you start doing it, it should go perfectly. should work perfectly. It should accomplish exactly everything you set out to accomplish. And there should be no problems. And I think there’s been then frustration from people in the communities who are like, well, that didn’t happen the way that you said it would, or that didn’t accomplish exactly what you set out to accomplish.

Danielle M. Conway (31:34)

Okay.

Insight Into Diversity (31:37)

And my conversation with him was really talking about the fact that, you know, DEI is allowed to fail just like anything else is. A program is allowed to have a hitch and then come back and circle around, figure out what the hitch was and fix it. And I love so much that you are not just acknowledging that those things happen in these programs that are doing important work and also we’re human beings and we’re gonna…

Misty (31:59)

Thank you.

Danielle M. Conway (32:00)

Mm-hmm.

Insight Into Diversity (32:03)

we’re going to miss the mark sometimes or we’re going to miss step sometimes, or we’re going to have maybe not thought something completely through that we now realize, we needed to add a layer of thought to this. I think it’s so important to express that honest appraisal that we’re doing a great thing, we’re doing great work, and also we recognize that if we need to circle back to something, we’re going to circle back and we’re going to do it better.

Misty (32:14)

We are.

Yeah,

Danielle M. Conway (32:33)

And that’s a hierarchy in and of itself, right?

Misty (32:33)

that’s

Danielle M. Conway (32:37)

Oh, diversity, equity, and inclusion has to be perfect. When we give society a pass and the major powers and those who are proximate to that power, they don’t have to be perfect.

Right? But this thing that we have isolated and put to the side and called it something different, diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging has to be perfect. And the other aspect of this is that it is not supposed to be perfect. Rather, it’s supposed to be embedded in what it is we are doing as a society. We should be practicing this concept.

foundational concept of inclusion all the time. And let’s not let definitions get in our way of this action of inclusion. And the reason why we talk about anti-racism distinctively is because anti-racism is part

of the fabric of this nation. That’s what everybody said they wanted. It’s not what we practice. And we put that in our constitution with the 14th Amendment, but we don’t practice it.

And the practicing is acknowledging, teaching and learning, acquiring knowledge and acting. We don’t practice it. So this must be embedded in how we coexist, not something over here on the side, which I think is what’s distracting a lot of people. Right? If in fact you think about this work of inclusion as embedded,

in our society, then we stop siloing things that we call diversity, equity, inclusion. If we stop talking about these things in binary terms as if no one else exists except black and white, we’re going to be distracted. I love this book,

Irvin Painter wrote a book called The History of White People. It is not a joke. It is a serious historical book and she is a brilliant historian. And the importance of this book is to demonstrate how race along the entire spectrum, including those who identify with whiteness, how it was constructed.

But if you listen to our conversation, we think that the only thing raced is blackness or the Asian diaspora or Latinx. No. So if you get this book by Nell Irwin-Panger, you’d like, I see the construction of whiteness. And now I understand this.

And that would be a huge leap. If people just read that book, I’d be like, OK, let’s just keep it going. We’re good.

Misty (36:14)

Yeah, I actually love that idea

of putting a list of books that folks can read in the podcast notes as well. one specific to this episode, I think that would be great. because people will probably, you know, and this goes back to your book series and the work that you’re doing and how you operate within the group, but just giving people actionable items that they can do, right? Because

folks might listen to it and then go, okay, but like, where do I start Just as a person. And so having a list of books and some action steps that they can take is always, I think, really helpful in that, you know, in helping to create that cultural shift that I believe that you are working towards. And also, like, this brings me to a question I really wanted to ask you And this might be a one-off, but…

Danielle M. Conway (36:42)

Right.

Okay,

one.

Misty (37:05)

I’m going to take it back just a little bit. all the work that you’re doing within the law, I was curious if any of your books, one of your books or anything that you’re doing is in line with justice reform, which very much so ties into anti-racist work, socioeconomic issues. This is not scholarly, but I saw this really moving TikTok post.

where a lawyer was talking about the worst case that he ever had. And he was crying and saying that he won against a woman and it has plagued him for his entire career because the only reason that he won was because she was poor and she couldn’t afford to continue fighting and she shouldn’t have lost. he believed she actually should have won the case. And that has been in the back of my mind as we’re talking about, you know,

Danielle M. Conway (37:48)

Thank you.

Yeah.

Misty (38:05)

like inclusion and making the world better through law and all the work that you guys are doing. And so I was just curious if justice reform was in there and if not, what are your kind of future plans and hopes in like the broader scheme of things?

Danielle M. Conway (38:14)

Yes.

everything that we do is embedded with the 14th Amendment. And so the 14th Amendment writ large is about equality and justice. And so there’s this promise that was made by all of these people with competing interests.

There were people in the rafters who were not ever considered part of the political body who were out marching. And I was watching Antiques Roadshow. I got to say this. And they had this, this dress on Antiques Roadshow that a woman was wearing in the 1860s and, or she, sewed it in the 1860s. And it was talking about

her right to be recognized, right? And she plastered her protest on her dress, So here are all these people who aren’t able to vote, but their voice is still being put forward. So.

to respond to what you said about the lawyer who was lawyering in a controversy against probably someone it sounds like was not represented.

Misty (39:55)

Yeah, I think that they had

a public defender. I think it was a family court case.

Danielle M. Conway (40:00)

Okay,

okay, fair enough, even represented, but sometimes we see the disparity in that representation, but many times people aren’t represented also. And so what you’re pointing to is the construction of the rule of law, and the construction of that rule of law is strong when people are fairly represented, when they’re access to

the rule of law is meaningful, So yes, and our system is sort of pitted against wins and losses, but let me explain something to you. And I would explain it to this lawyer, and I hope he’s listening. It’s not about being sad because this happened.

what we have to take away from even in a win-loss system where there is a strong rule of law is that we recognize that there is a system of justice that meters that justice. That’s always the win, that it is there.

You are not guaranteed to win. I appreciate how hard that must be for people to hear. But what you are guaranteed is a system that you can feel a part of and a system that you can trust. This is where we are on shaky ground because people don’t see themselves as part of

the rule of law. And so when they see that individuals or companies or organizations are not held accountable, that’s when we lose trust.

Misty (42:02)

Mm-hmm.

Danielle M. Conway (42:05)

That should be the focus and the spotlight of what everyone is talking about. And trust me, if someone comes and they say, okay, I think diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging is not helping to promote a strong rule of law, our role in a democracy is to talk to one another and say, okay, what will?

And not to say this must be perfect, but let’s have this until we evolve something that we have more trust in. But not to demonize it or vilify it. It’s to empathize and say, we do not have a system that Americans trust. How do we build trust and strengthen the rule of law?

Misty (42:36)

Thank you.

Insight Into Diversity (43:04)

I think that that is a perfectly powerful way to end our conversation that has just been absolutely delightful. I am so excited about how excited you all are. You know, I think that the thing that matters the most in any kind of work like this, any kind of justice work,

Misty (43:08)

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Insight Into Diversity (43:28)

DEI work, anti-racist work, any of this. I think the thing that matters the most is that people are passionate about doing it. Not that they do it perfectly all the time, not that they have every answer to every problem, but that they are passionate. And you clearly are. And I hope that our listeners have really kind of resonated with that passion. I hope that they’re feeling that. And I’m so glad that we got an opportunity to

to hear from you and to hear about your process and your thoughts and your work is so meaningful and important. So thank you so much for taking the time out of your obviously very busy work to talk to us about this. Thank you so much.

Misty (44:06)

Yes.

Yeah, thank you. It

was really inspiring to hear all of your stories and to hear about the projects that you’re all doing. And folks that are listening, we will have a good amount of show notes for this one. So make sure you look forward to that.

Dermot Groome (44:11)

Thank you.

Insight Into Diversity (44:26)

Definitely, definitely. Well, thank you all so much. yeah, I think we’re going to stay in touch. Misty and I may show up at an event. You just never know.

Dermot Groome (44:31)

Thanks for having us.

Danielle M. Conway (44:35)

I love it. I love

Misty (44:35)

Thanks for watching.

TaWanda Hunter Stallworth (44:36)

would love to have you. It may or may not already be

Danielle M. Conway (44:37)